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Carol vs The Kids Are All Right- the academy may not be that homophobic

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  • Jason Travis
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    #214182

    I’ve seen both films, and both center around gay themes and a lesbian couple. There have been many that accused the academy of being homophobic by not nominating Carol for Best Picture this year because of it’s subject matter. What About The Kids Are All Right in 2010? That was a Best Picture nominee. Granted, there were 10 slots but still- perhaps voters just warmed up more to that movie- I certainly did. 

    Thoughts on this? 

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    Michael Norris
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    #214184

    Both are very good movies. I think Carol not making it had more to do with its cold tone. Far from Heaven also missed out where it probably should’ve made it. Something like The Hours is dark, make no mistake, but it still feels very accessible. I think Todd Haynes’s movies feel a little more elusive. I think this is a good thing, but I think it may turn some people off. Idk, I can’t really put it into words.

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    Volcarocka
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    #214186

    Carol wasn’t nominated because it didn’t deserve to be. To me, it was a good movie, but not a Best Picture contender. The performances were fantastic, but it wasn’t “One of the ten best movies of the year.”

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    benutty
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    #214187

    I like Ain’t No Elitist’s responses, but I’d like to add a major one to it.

    More than Carol is a queer film, it is a film about women–more specifically, a woman’s place, value and emotions in the context of a man’s world. The Kids Are All Right, for all that it is about women and gay issues, includes a prominent male POV and attitude where Carol does not. On top of Carol’s subject, it also displays a distinctly feminine aesthetic and mood whereas something like Black Swan feels very masculine, or rather less feminine.

    I don’t think AMPAS has an issue with gay films–there is simply just too much evidence against this. Aside from The Kids Are All Right, there’s Brokeback Mountain, The Hours, Milk, Dallas Buyers Club, The Imitation Game… that all address queer issues, but, again, the difference is they aren’t about the appreciation and acknowledgment of women.

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    jamiepg88
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    #214188

    I need to find it again but I read great article explaining how Carol suffered because of the way it dismissed tropes. Most lesbian dramas(and queer ones in general) end with someone dying, usually out of homophobic violence or self harm (Black Swan, The Hours which has 3 attempted suicides 2 of which are successful). The sex in Carol is also different in that it serves the story and not the male gaze, it isnt titilating the way the sex is in Black Swan. Another common trope is having your lesbian protagonist sleep with a man cause you know no woman can really be totally gay right:/. The Kids not only uses that but it’s entire plot is about how a man fits into the women’s relationship. Carol doesn’t punish it’s characters for being queer and instead gives them hope for a happy life. Not only that but it gives them hope only by removing the men (a cruel husband, an entitled boyfriend) from their lives. In one scene Carol completely dismisses a male character and openly mocks him with her female companion…it’s interesting then that it was under appreciated by the academy despite being one the best reviewed movies not only compared to this year but past BP nominees of similar content.

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    seabel
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    #214189

    The true homophobia is awarding movies where the gay character dies, suffers through tragedy for being gay, gay is seen as a conflict and stuff like that, but in a bad way.

    Philadelphia, Brokeback Mountain, Milk… You know what I mean? What happened in those stories?

    The lesbianism in Carol is very naturalised, very ordinary, so that’s not FAIR for the Industry’s taste.

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    Michael Norris
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    #214190

    The one point of Elitist’s I disagree with is #1. That year was awesome. I remember a lot of people saying that at the time. True Grit was the weakest, and even that was good. And even that perception is after five years have gone by. At the time it seemed epic.

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    Anonymous
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    #214191

    Don’t you know how Academy works? There are only two ways Academy likes gay people. You have to suffer a lot or die, or better both. Or you have to be the biggest prancing queen in the world. If you want to get recognized, you can’t be normal happy human being. You have to be either miserable as fuck or flamboyant as fuck. And if you’re a lesbian, you have to either have hot steamy sex (the one you see in porn movies) or you need to taste cock at least once.

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    babypook
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    #214192

    I like Ain’t No Elitist’s responses, but I’d like to add a major one to it.

    More than Carol is a queer film, it is a film about women–more specifically, a woman’s place, value and emotions in the context of a man’s world. The Kids Are All Right, for all that it is about women and gay issues, includes a prominent male POV and attitude where Carol does not. On top of Carol’s subject, it also displays a distinctly feminine aesthetic and mood whereas something like Black Swan feels very masculine, or rather less feminine.

    I don’t think AMPAS has an issue with gay films–there is simply just too much evidence against this. Aside from The Kids Are All Right, there’s Brokeback Mountain, The Hours, Milk, Dallas Buyers Club, The Imitation Game… that all address queer issues, but, again, the difference is they aren’t about the appreciation and acknowledgment of women.

    What’s wonderful about TKAAR is that, these women are like anybody else. Normal. Mothers. Friends. Married.

    BBM: dead

    The Hours: out the window folks

    Milk: dead

    DBC: radical, dying

    TIG: imprisoned, persecuted, dead.

    Lovely.

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    Anonymous
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    #214193

    You see Jason, everytime a gay-centered or a race-centered, or even a woman-centered contender will miss out, people will make their calls about it. So from now on, with all these nonsense speak ups on the issues, we (and the nominees) will never be able to decide what’s the truth behind the future nominations: do the voters really think they were worthy, or they just went with the political choice? 

    I’m quite sad about it, honestly. Because first of all, diversity isn’t about rewarding black people also. It would be about rewarding EVERYONE. Not only white and black. Secondly, I don’t think that people against woman-themed films. Like name me a snub from last year. “Suffragette” was not exactly awards-worthy, so calling that snub, is a bit weird. “Brooklyn” & “Room” and even “Mad Max: Fury Road” can be considered as female-driven films. And should I start mention “Philomena” “Gravity” “Zero Dark Thirty” “Silver Linings Playbook” “Amour” “Beasts of the Southern Wild” “The Help” “Winter’s Bone” “True Grit” “Black Swan” and so on from the previous years as important BP-nominees with women in the center.Third, about your topic, I think the Academy is clearly not against LGBT people. I mean “The Kids Are All Right” “Capote” “Transamerica” “Little Miss Sunshine” “Black Swan” “The Imitation Game” “Brokeback Mountain” “The Hours” & “Far From Heaven” are all important films featuring LGBT people in the center or in important supporting roles. I mean which films are the snubs? “Carol”, I give you that. “Blue Is the Warmest Color”? – incredible film, but so far from the Academy’s cup of tea without them being homophobic. What else? “Sommerstorm” is one of my favorits, but no one on earth heard about that either. 

    In the end, it should be about the quality and the performance instead of the political cause.

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    jamiepg88
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    #214194

    You see Jason, everytime a gay-centered or a race-centered, or even a woman-centered contender will miss out, people will make their calls about it. So from now on, with all these nonsense speak ups on the issues, we (and the nominees) will never be able to decide what’s the truth behind the future nominations: do the voters really think they were worthy, or they just went with the political choice? 

    I’m quite sad about it, honestly. Because first of all, diversity isn’t about rewarding black people also. It would be about rewarding EVERYONE. Not only white and black. Secondly, I don’t think that people against woman-themed films. Like name me a snub from last year. “Suffragette” was not exactly awards-worthy, so calling that snub, is a bit weird. “Brooklyn” & “Room” and even “Mad Max: Fury Road” can be considered as female-driven films. And should I start mention “Philomena” “Gravity” “Zero Dark Thirty” “Silver Linings Playbook” “Amour” “Beasts of the Southern Wild” “The Help” “Winter’s Bone” “True Grit” “Black Swan” and so on from the previous years as important BP-nominees with women in the center.Third, about your topic, I think the Academy is clearly not against LGBT people. I mean “The Kids Are All Right” “Capote” “Transamerica” “Little Miss Sunshine” “Black Swan” “The Imitation Game” “Brokeback Mountain” “The Hours” & “Far From Heaven” are all important films featuring LGBT people in the center or in important supporting roles. I mean which films are the snubs? “Carol”, I give you that. “Blue Is the Warmest Color”? – incredible film, but so far from the Academy’s cup of tea without them being homophobic. What else? “Sommerstorm” is one of my favorits, but no one on earth heard about that either. 

    In the end, it should be about the quality and the performance instead of the political cause.

    I think it’s telling that the two you mention as snubs, Carol and Blue, are the only two that are in no way about men. The women are the one and only focus and in Carol especially they aren’t punished for it. A close minded person can wrap their head around queer only so long as they suffer or they have a part of themselves ( a straight white man generally) to anchor them to the story. Straight men don’t get anything out of Carol whereas Brooklyn and Mad Max and the like are still in many ways built around males. Obviously not every man will respond this way but enough of them did for Carol to miss picture where Room and Brooklyn made it with very few noms otherwise

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    Anonymous
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    #214195

    “Blue is the Warmest Color” is a French film, it’s over-long, and very out of their confront zone (not because it’s about two women…). 

    “Carol” has earned six nominations. 

    They were snubs for sure, but I doubt it’s because of homophobia. “The Kids Are All Right” has made the cut after all. 

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    jamiepg88
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    #214196

    TKAAR also played into the idea that any lesbian can be tempted into a man’s bed…and framed itself around that man entering their lives. It’s the type of gay story a straight white male voting body is willing to support because they feel included. Carol wasn’t about them so they only recognized they’re favorite Cate, a fraudulent Mara and some below the line mentions. Had Carol gone back to her husband in the end they’d be in the best picture line up for sure

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    Christopher Kolasa
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    #214197

    I agree with you 100% Jamiepg88.

    I certainly love and can enjoy some of these film – ie, The Hours is my 2nd favorite film ever, Birdcage and To Wong Foo are hilarious and I can watch them a million times, MIlk was wonderful, ect ect…

    But I wish they would ALSO make films about us that make our sexuality secondary, or not even the point. Not every movie (or tv show for that mattter) has to be about someone having HIVAIDS, murdered for being who we are, repressed or hated, or stereotypical queen.

    As for Carol, I don’t know. I didn’t love it. It was a fine film but Im not upset it didn’t make the top ten. However, it is interesting how it is about a woman who basically refuses to back down in the end to her husband(ex) and decides to live her life the way she wants it. I do think there are a lot of men who would be treatened by that – and its even more magnified that it takes place in the 50’s.
    TKAAR – I hated it. Im sorry but I was just soooo turned off at the fact that since their marraige was on the rocks, she then has an affair with a man who just happens to be the sperm donor father of their children. I thought it was creeptasitc. Plus, while I may not know all that much about lesbians and their sex lives, I find it hilarious that so many people (straight people??) seem to think that us gays not only jump into bed with anyone of our own sex, but in times of crisis or drunkeness, when have to sleep with the oppisite sex as well. So the fact that the man in the movie can seemingly please her while the wife can’t – Im sure it does the straight male viewers ego some good.
    IMO

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    jamiepg88
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    #214198

    Exactly ChristopherK. There are so many movies made about queer people and yet it seems rare that they’re done with respect. Especially with how often stories are modified to fit heteronormative charters into focus or positions of power. Artistic license is one thing but when Dallas Buyers Club altered to be a straight white males struggle and redemption…it leaves a bad taste in one’s mouth. Which is why this year stings for me because Carol felt so different because it didnt compromise. It seemed it, and it’s gay director, really had a chance to compete…but I guess it’ll be a while yet for those kinds of stories to really be embraced

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