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August 11, 2017 at 8:49 pm #1202182774
What would have happened if some Duke would had took King Henry VIII as a prisoner?….Most of the acts of King Aerys were justified, and many times in real history rulers burn down their cities before letting the enemey take them. And since were are talking about fiction there’s the greatest scene in the film Der Untergang (The Downfall) in which Adolf Hitler tell what should happens to the germans if they didn’t defend Berlin.
Aerys was the dipshit who walked into a trap after Tywin begged him not to, I can’t side with him on that. You haven’t justified his stupid raising of the port fees, or torturing and burning people with no grounds to satiate his paranoia, or executing his son’s nursemaid/torturing and executing his mistress’s family. And Aerys to Hitler in this scenario is not a really… favorable comparison. He was just being bitter. “The traitors want my city, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat.”
I say this because you tried to argue Aerys was peaceful and competent, he was neither. He was only competent when listening to Tywin, who he conspired to execute (can’t fault Tywin for fleeing a sinking ship that was trying to drag him down with him). He was not peaceful because he burned innocent nobles alive, those not even conspiring against him, and was willing to nuke a city to be petty. He wasn’t conspired against because he was peaceful and competent, it’s because everyone knew he was batshit, so even then I can’t fault them. Sure, some of his actions had historical contexts, as many figures in Game of Thrones, but just because something happened in history didn’t make it immune to criticize, we criticize historical figures all the time. Because their actions weren’t logical even in their contemporary contexts.
And I get this has no relevance on a Game of Thrones thread but there is no ASOIAF thread so…..August 11, 2017 at 9:27 pm #1202182809
Not saying he was a saint but not the monster in black and white that the show has made to believe, that is not the case in the books. About burning his enemy, in real history that was a common lawful punishment to traitors (see the Salem judgments).
What I’m trying to tell is that ancient and medievals rulers used sometimes very cruel measures even the good ones. GoT is based in the War of Roses and others historical events so watchers need to have that in mind…British, romans, mongols and Persians didn’t have a PC mentality.August 12, 2017 at 7:07 am #1202183081
No, they’re not the same. Dany conquering with fire and blood like she did not learn anything from her stay in Essos would be really stupid, don’t you think? Like can you really imagine the “revolutionary”, slave-freer Daenerys doing the same fire-and-blood conquest that her ancestors did? Tyrion and Varys are asking Dany to be more diplomatic. Isn’t this why they chose to serve her? Why would Tyrion serve/advise a despot?
If she had gone straight to KL with her 3 dragons and she inadvertently ignited all the wildfire, what would be left to be queen of? Ashes?
August 12, 2017 at 10:10 am #1202183139
- This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by kvothe_snow.
I don’t think it would be stupid or even slightly unusual when compared to real life. In our modern world, we have history books upon history books that we ignore, as we continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. If history teaches us anything, its that people make the same mistakes over and over again because its in our nature. Even the actual victims of awful crimes don’t learn anything and sometimes commit the same awful acts that they endured (Ex. child molesters).
Taking some acts of goodness and applying them to the entire character of Dany is missing out on how people have acted throughout history. How many of our beloved forefathers owned slaves? How many glorified historical figures have also done, what we now see, as atrocious acts? These characters are not dressed in black and white. Dany didn’t get a halo to hang over her head for the rest of her life because she freed some slaves. These characters are much more complicated than that.
We shouldn’t view these characters through the lens of moral characters in the fictional shows we watch and the morals that we’ve created in this day and age. In actuality, morals are much more complicated in real life and way more complicated when we start looking at different time periods, such as the War of Roses, like Lord Freddy is saying.
Tyrion isn’t a fortune teller. He doesn’t know how Dany is going to act. He’s aligned himself with the best leader, at the moment, but things change and the person who we see as a great leader, one day, can easily change. Unfortunately, human beings usually tie their emotions and their allegiance to that leader and follow them no matter their new shift towards extreme acts. This is why so many people continued to follow the orders of the Nazi party even when it contradicted their original morals. Look at yourself and ask yourself how many times you’ve forgiven a leader’s awful act because you decided to support them prior to that. Bill Clinton did a lot of bad things but I’ve somehow minimized those acts in my mind because I’ve aligned myself with the democratic party and opposed those people that tried to destroy him.
Turning KL to ashes wouldn’t be a shocking act when comparing it to our own history. Many leaders have been willing to demolish an entire country, or land, to save their own. She would still have 6 more kingdoms to rule. Leaders have often been willing to destroy many to protect their own. Right now, in our own supposedly moral world, we are willing to starve the innocent people of North Korea to protect ourselves from a nuclear war. People go to extreme places to protect their territory.
You said that you think that the show is about the character’s making mistakes. I think the show is more about the complexities of moral choices when in the face of a savage war.August 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm #1202183267
You’re not understanding her arc or her storyline at all. She’s being built up in the show as someone unique. Her ancestors did not hatch dragons out of extinction. They did not free slaves. They did not give justice to those who were oppressed. They did not try to rewrite history the way Daenerys is doing now. So looking at Daenerys as if she’s like any Targaryen who’s going to keep “spinning the wheel” instead of breaking it would be forgetting everything she has done in Essos. Conquering Westeros by inciting fear and with use of fire would not make her any better than Cersei, who is doing EXACTLY what you want Dany to do. The people of KL love Cersei right now. She brings them relative peace. If Dany had not attacked the Lannister army, she would have given her people food. Cersei was the first ruler in many years to have paid the kingdom’s debt. If what you want is peace, then let Cersei sit on the throne and let her get rid of Daenerys, the invader. I’m glad Tyrion and Varys are intelligent enough to support a ruler who can potentially bring change to all this.August 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm #1202183274
I love how this forum has become a political debate about fictional characters.
As for the show itself, I hope the Hound returns soon or I’ll be upset.August 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm #1202183297
That’s what makes the show interesting. You can take sides and look at it from so many different perspectives.August 12, 2017 at 2:40 pm #1202183312
In the books Dany and Cersei are my favorite characters because of the complexity of the situation that both face as rulers. These are the only instances where GRRM show how hard is to govern a nation in chaos, that is almost completely absent in the show….All the good actions of Dany lead Meereen and the people of that city/state in much more danger but that didn’t mean she was mistake,,,she tried to change the economy from one based on slavery to one base on trade and her enemies torch the farms, forrest and everything that could improve the economy….Cersei tried to solidified the security of her son’s kingdom, building a fleet, reducind the debt and the result is the Hight Sparrow, the lost of the fleet, etc…I wish D&D would had cut Dorne and put more enphasis in the politics of the Game of Thrones.August 12, 2017 at 4:39 pm #1202183400
You’re not understanding her arc or her storyline at all. She’s being built up in the show as someone unique. Her ancestors did not hatch dragons out of extinction. They did not free slaves. They did not give justice to those who were oppressed. They did not try to rewrite history the way Daenerys is doing now. So looking at Daenerys as if she’s like any Targaryen who’s going to keep “spinning the wheel” instead of breaking it would be forgetting everything she has done in Essos. Conquering Westeros by inciting fear and with use of fire would not make her any better than Cersei, who is doing EXACTLY what you want Dany to do. The people of KL love Cersei right now. She brings them relative peace. If Dany had not attacked the Lannister army, she would have given her people food. Cersei was the first ruler in many years to have paid the kingdom’s debt. If what you want is peace, then let Cersei sit on the throne and let her get rid of Daenerys, the invader. I’m glad Tyrion and Varys are intelligent enough to support a ruler who can potentially bring change to all this.
I, personally, don’t want Dany to act on the level of Cersei but I wouldn’t be surprised if she does. I don’t think her arc is already set in stone. Don’t you think it is slightly possible the writers could have her give into the nature of her Targarian ancestors? That the show wants to make a statement about war and how it corrupts people? At least from the previews for this week, it looks like Tyrion and Varys have to change her mind about something regarding the war. It appears like she is making choices that don’t go along with the arc you are seeing. Whether she goes through with it is another thing.
Maybe this is a bump in the road in a Tygarion redemption story and Dany is the savior that you see. A story is certainly much more interesting when there is an internal fight but, maybe it is a sign, that she is breaking towards the bad side and she’ll turn out like her ancestors.August 12, 2017 at 4:46 pm #1202183424
Have they revealed that Jon Snow is the child of a Targarian and a Stark or is that an unconfirmed story from the leaks? If that’s true, it seems that they are setting up Snow to be the “unique” one combining fire and ice. Also, he is the only one that sees beyond the fighting among the people to recognize the true fight they should be having with the whitewalkers.August 12, 2017 at 4:53 pm #1202183441
Have they revealed that Jon Snow is the child of a Targarian and a Stark or is that an unconfirmed story from the leaks? If that’s true, it seems that they are setting up Snow to be the “unique” one combining fire and ice. Also, he is the only one that sees beyond the fighting among the people to recognize the true fight they should be having with the whitewalkers.
He is, that was made clear in the last season finale, Ned’s sister Lyanna “kidnapped” by her lover Rhaegar and held in the Tower of Joy, Ned finds her giving birth to a baby he takes back with him south, Jon. R+L=J!August 12, 2017 at 4:54 pm #1202183442
I feel Jon Snow is also being set up to be the winner of this “game” because he was brought back to life bringing up parallels to Jesus (well, or zombies).August 13, 2017 at 9:47 pm #1202184385
this episode was info overload. One revelation after another.August 13, 2017 at 10:07 pm #1202184402August 14, 2017 at 9:35 am #1202184800
Great Episode , obs a bit slower after the whirlwind of last week. Great to see Sam and Gilly ( always make me happy ) sad to see Sansa and Arya bickering . and i cant stop laughing now when i see bran thanks to Leslie Jordan ..
usually the second to last episode of the seasons is one of the best , cant wait to see next week.
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”
― F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby
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