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Joker Spoiler Thread

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  • Tyler
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    #1203122138

    I think this will be necessary.

    I just saw the film and haven’t really sorted out my thoughts on it’s message and if it is worthy of the controversy, but what I will say is while the film does a lot well (Joaquin is great, atmospheric, the comedy allegory) this movie has some FLAWS! I haven’t come to a conclusion on whether I would classify it overall as “good” or “bad”, but it sure as hell is not perfect, I almost wonder what the jury watched at Venice.

    First of all, it’s depiction of mental health is pretty damn sloppy. When it was revealed Arthur had imagined the entire relationship with Zazzie’s character I was upset, because despite Arthur’s characterization as severely ill, I don’t think it was ever hinted at that he had this type of delusion/personality disorder, it felt like a plot device.

    Secondly, and maybe this is because of the comic, but Joker was abused as a kid? Like seriously, could there be a more cliche origin technique out there… and past that, not a great thing to say regarding survivors of abuse.

    The scene at the Wayne’s felt like fan service in a movie that swore it wasn’t really a comic book movie, but I liked the touch at the end. The Late Night show scene was great.

    I have more thoughts to gather, and it’s to the film’s credit that it has left me without a clear opinion, but nonetheless, it’s by no means some grand character study achievement or even comparable with The Dark Knight

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    TheDreamingHead
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    #1203122172

    I, like many other people agree that the screenplay is extremely problematic here.

    The story is so cliché, the ‘misunderstood’ villain’s origin story has been told countless times before, and I swear I will fume if Cruella will be done in the same fashion!

    The character development is so blatantly similar to Travis Bickle of Taxi Driver, but in a less genuine and realistic way than Taxi Driver. How ironic to even include De Niro in this movie, only to play Joker/Travis’s nemesis!

    Some plothotles and blown-out-of-proportions here and there. Especially the unclear Arthur Fleck’s origin and the film hardly bothered to shed any light on it made me scratch my head!! Not to mention some plot convenience just for shock values is sometimes unreasonable and random…

    Overall, I think Joaquin’s performance is so good that it makes noone bother with the extremely flawed screenplay behind it!

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    Cinephile
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    #1203122177

    I, like many other people agree that the screenplay is extremely problematic here. The story is so cliché, the ‘misunderstood’ villain’s origin story has been told countless times before, and I swear I will fume if Cruella will be done in the same fashion! The character development is so blatantly similar to Travis Bickle of Taxi Driver, but in a less genuine and realistic way than Taxi Driver. How ironic to even include De Niro in this movie, only to play Joker/Travis’s nemesis! Some plothotles and blown-out-of-proportions here and there. Especially the unclear Arthur Fleck’s origin and the film hardly bothered to shed any light on it made me scratch my head!! Not to mention some plot convenience just for shock values is sometimes unreasonable and random… Overall, I think Joaquin’s performance is so good that it makes noone bother with the extremely flawed screenplay behind it!

    couldn’t agree more. Also didn’t enjoy the final scene, it felt too on the nose. Would’ve been better to end it on the previous scene of Joker on top of the car during the riot.

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    Dee Dee Blanchard
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    #1203122198

    Little angels, those flashbacks about Zazie Beetz’s character were tremendously atrocious. Phillips treated the audience like dumbasses.

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    Cinephile
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    #1203122200

    Little angels, those flashbacks about Zazie Beetz’s character were tremendously atrocious. Phillips treated the audience like dumbasses.

    lol we all saw it coming a mile away

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    moviefan617
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    #1203122226

    Immediately after coming out of the film, I kept going back and forth on whether I thought this was a good film, which is probably not a good reaction to have coming out of any film. I needed to sit with what I saw and figure out if I didn’t like the movie or was simply upset by the things I saw onscreen. Film can be upsetting but still fantastic. The problem here is that there are too many flaws that detract from the good elements, and coupled with a film that leaves you feeling awfully bleak about the world you’ve just seen, I can’t really imagine anyone coming out of this movie being invigorated and enthusiastic by what they had just seen.

    This screenplay is a MESS. It certainly thinks it has a lot to say, but it is not really anything you couldn’t already expect if you know that this is a villain origin story. The beats are familiar and when it comes time for the dialogue to start handing out its thesis statement, it does not land the way the film thinks it does. This is ignoring many of the illogical machinations in the last thirty or so minutes of the film. There is no reason for the late night show scene to go on for as long as it does, because it would have been rationally pulled from the airwaves long before Arthur shoots Murray. Everything with the Zazie Beetz character was a miss. The first two crimes/instances of outcasting against Arthur are done by people of color. A police investigation seemingly unravels with little to no detail until it is time to arrest Arthur because he let his friend go after seeing him murder his coworker, and even then, only two police officers are on hand for an arrest that ends in an on-foot chase. And the insistence that this isn’t a Batman movie only to have Thomas and Bruce Wayne makes multiple, prominent appearances is just eyeroll worthy. Messy, messy, messy.

    The biggest test for understanding if the screenplay is doing its job is audience reaction, and my audience just did not get this film at all. They laughed throughout the entire thing, when the whole point of the film is that Arthur is revolting against those who would laugh at his misery. So if the filmmakers can’t get that message across and the audience for this film is behaving in the same manner as the film’s supposed “villains,” did you really successfully convey the dangers of that behavior and how it shapes someone like Arthur? Blame a dumb crowd or blame a bad screenplay, but maybe it’s better to blame both.

    Joaquin is good, but there are very few moments during the film where I was taken out of the constant stream of thought of “Joaquin Phoenix is acting.” So after a while, that gets kind of annoying because where some people may see him as “slipping into character,” I see him as doing the most for the sake of doing the most, and not because he is really enveloped in this character. Maybe it is his public persona that detracts for me too, but I spent a lot of the movie not really being surprised that this was the performance we got from him and while it certainly is a very good performance, it rarely elevates itself beyond exactly that: being a “performance.”

    So yeah, I think I’m more in the “bad” than “good” crowd because the film has something to say, but it either does so in a negative, unproductive manner or it does it half-added, and sometimes (dangerously, one could say) both. I actually am flabbergasted that this won the Golden Lion, and yet I can see this film attaining some awards season success. I can’t say I’ll be championing it throughout these next few months, though.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  moviefan617.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  moviefan617.
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    M: The Original
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    #1203122351

    couldn’t agree more. Also didn’t enjoy the final scene, it felt too on the nose. Would’ve been better to end it on the previous scene of Joker on top of the car during the riot.

    That just says sequel were it to end at the riots. And since this is a standalone there had to be some finality to the coda.

    Kathy Bates for Best Supporting Actress (Richard Jewell)

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    M: The Original
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    #1203122358

    First of all, it’s depiction of mental health is pretty damn sloppy. When it was revealed Arthur had imagined the entire relationship with Zazzie’s character I was upset, because despite Arthur’s characterization as severely ill, I don’t think it was ever hinted at that he had this type of delusion/personality disorder, it felt like a plot device.

    Joker lifts directly from Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy. In the latter De Niro imagines himself on a date with a Black female bartender.

    Kathy Bates for Best Supporting Actress (Richard Jewell)

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    M: The Original
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    #1203122360

    The whole thing for me was miserable and in poor taste.

    Kathy Bates for Best Supporting Actress (Richard Jewell)

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    Tyler
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    #1203122410

    What’s frustrating is that while the themes may be presented in a slightly irresponsible way, I don’t necessarily take issue with what the film is trying to say nor the violence in it – which really isn’t too pervasive. Rather, I just think the movie isn’t that great because of flaws in the filmmaking / a pretty lazy screenplay, but I know as soon as I open my mouth saying Joker wasn’t great fanboys assume I’m too PC and an SJW.

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    babypook
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    #1203122416

    After reading some of the reviews from the lunatic fascist “left”, I’ve decided I’m going to support this film, and to the bitter end.
    Similar to Green Book hysterics, it looks like they didn’t see the film.

    jmho….

    Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
    Philip K Dick Blade Runner

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    MMartin
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    #1203122437

    From the spoilers reviews I have read the Joker appears to be more anti-Wall Street, kill the rich, capitalism sucks themed. So it makes me thinks the conservatives supporting this film because its “Anti-SJW” are going to be very disappointed.

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    Marcus Snowden (The Artist Formerly Known as msnowden1)
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    #1203123092

    @babypook As a Trump supporter, do you think that the criticism from the left made you love the movie more than you would’ve under different circumstances.

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    babypook
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    #1203123156

    I’m not a Trump supporter. Ha!

    I’m told that I am a classic liberal.
    You’ve got to be kidding me Marcus. After all this time of reading each other’s posts….
    lolol

    He’s destroying our environment up here…

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  teri.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  teri.

    Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
    Philip K Dick Blade Runner

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    midnightdreary
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    #1203123163

    When it was revealed Arthur had imagined the entire relationship with Zazzie’s character I was upset, because despite Arthur’s characterization as severely ill, I don’t think it was ever hinted at that he had this type of delusion/personality disorder, it felt like a plot device. 

    If he wasnt adopted, then you could probably chalk it up some hereditary disorder. I will add as well (that annoyed me a bit) is that they really needed to hammer this home by showing flashbacks. Having her walk into room, visibly get scared and says “You’re name is Arthur, right? Why are you in my apartment?” etc was pretty obvious that he had been imagining the relationship. I don’t think it needed to be made more obvious.

    Also the whole scene with Murray was a bit unbelievable. You have a guy who is admitting to murdering people, doesnt seem to show any remorse…..and you just let the show go on? I can maybe see Murray trying to keep him engaged long enough for police to show…but wouldnt you cut the show a lot earlier? Wouldnt the guests or audience members try to leave or something. Everyone just sits there and takes it in?

    But those are my main complaints. I otherwise really liked it. Joaquin was phenonemal.

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