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Worst Fraud Acting Category In Last 20 Years

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    Bonehead
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    #1205094831

    Judas and the Black Messiah was the best film of 2021, easily. Ryan Coogler deserves a medal for choosing to produce that film following his Black Panther success.

    That being said, I’ll defend the Academy and say that the supporting actor nominations for Daniel Kaluuya AND LaKeith Stanfield were justified.

    Individually, they both had less than 40% of the film’s screentime. It was an ensemble piece that allowed other performers like Dominique Fishback, Jesse Plemons, and Algee Smith to lead the narrative at various points.

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    Sir Shaw
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    #1205094835

    2. Rooney Mara- Carol Couldn’t believe it, still don’t believe it, but this just shows studios do not want lead actresses competing against each other in the same category.

    Which is still so odd since I) she won Cannes over Blanchett II) Blanchett wasn’t going to a win a 3rd Oscar two years after winning #2 for a film that wasn’t a Top 3 contender.

     

     

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    Jacob "Oscar Boy" Boe
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    #1205094851

    Judas and the Black Messiah was the best film of 2021, easily. Ryan Coogler deserves a medal for choosing to produce that film following his Black Panther success. That being said, I’ll defend the Academy and say that the supporting actor nominations for Daniel Kaluuya AND LaKeith Stanfield were justified. Individually, they both had less than 40% of the film’s screentime. It was an ensemble piece that allowed other performers like Dominique Fishback, Jesse Plemons, and Algee Smith to lead the narrative at various points.

    no it was not justified. The next highest screen time was less than 20 minutes. No way no how was it an ensemble piece. It was egregious category fraud where the two titular protagonists were put into supporting.

    Grammys FYC:

    "Glimpse of Us" - Joji

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    Bonehead
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    #1205094853

    no it was not justified. The next highest screen time was less than 20 minutes. No way no how was it an ensemble piece. It was egregious category fraud where the two titular protagonists were put into supporting.

    Ok, was Michael Keaton lead for Spotlight?

    Because he shares about the same amount of screentime (48:36 or 37.67%) in that film as Stanfield (49:51 or 39.75%) and Kaluuya (46:09 or 36.80%) did in theirs.

    Mark Ruffalo in Spotlight (40:31 or 31.40%) has only slightly less screentime than Daniel Kaluuya in Judas as well. After McAdams (31:12 or 24.18%), who only has 6.01% more screentime than Dominique Fishback (22:47 or 18.17%), the other players in Spotlight don’t tap 20 minutes either.

    Or is the issue more that LaKeith Stanfield and Daniel Kaluuya play titular characters and that nominating them in supporting is seen as an egregious move because it denied actors of color recognition in Lead?

     

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    Jacob "Oscar Boy" Boe
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    #1205095020

    Ok, was Michael Keaton lead for Spotlight? Because he shares about the same amount of screentime (48:36 or 37.67%) in that film as Stanfield (49:51 or 39.75%) and Kaluuya (46:09 or 36.80%) did in theirs. Mark Ruffalo in Spotlight (40:31 or 31.40%) has only slightly less screentime than Daniel Kaluuya in Judas as well. After McAdams (31:12 or 24.18%), who only has 6.01% more screentime than Dominique Fishback (22:47 or 18.17%), the other players in Spotlight don’t tap 20 minutes either. Or is the issue more that LaKeith Stanfield and Daniel Kaluuya play titular characters and that nominating them in supporting is seen as an egregious move because it denied actors of color recognition in Lead?

    Well, yes, both Keaton and Ruffalo were leads, and McAdams was borderline, but that’s neither here nor there.

    “only slightly less than Kaluuya” = 5%

    “McAdams only has more than” = 6%

    When added together, that’s 11%!

    Im sorry but your argument is wrong. It’s just plain bad and manipulative. The fact is Fishback was in less than half as much of the film as Kaluuya. It’s not ensemble in nature. Case closed.

    (And by the way it’s not about “denying actors of color recognition;” it’s about it denying supporting actors recognition.)

    Grammys FYC:

    "Glimpse of Us" - Joji

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    Bonehead
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    #1205095041

    Well, yes, both Keaton and Ruffalo were leads, and McAdams was borderline, but that’s neither here nor there. “only slightly less than Kaluuya” = 5% “McAdams only has more than” = 6% When added together, that’s 11%! Im sorry but your argument is wrong. It’s just plain bad and manipulative. The fact is Fishback was in less than half as much of the film as Kaluuya. It’s not ensemble in nature. Case closed. (And by the way it’s not about “denying actors of color recognition;” it’s about it denying supporting actors recognition.)

    Ok. What screentime percentage should constitute a supporting categorization vs lead? 30%? 35%? Should titular characters always be considered lead? Are all protagonists leads?

    Why does everyone get so upset about LaKeith Stanfield and Daniel Kaluuya specifically when Leslie Odom Jr was even more of an offender in terms of screenlength and screen time percentage. What about Tom Hanks for Mister Rogers, Anthony Hopkins as a Pope or Lucas Hedges in Manchester? They all had more screentime than Daniel Kaluuya.

    We’re dealing with issues of perception. Unless The Academy adopts clear policies it’s always going to be up for debate.

    But if you start pulling on the thread that the Academy should be an insitution that plays fair and is more concerned with artistic integrity than increasing the commercial aspects of American cinema then the whole damn thing is bound to unravel.

     

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    Jacob "Oscar Boy" Boe
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    #1205095053

    Ok. What screentime percentage should constitute a supporting categorization vs lead? 30%? 35%? Should titular characters always be considered lead? Why does everyone get so upset about LaKeith Stanfield and Daniel Kaluuya specifically when Leslie Odom Jr was even more of an offender in terms of screenlength and screen time percentage. What about Tom Hanks for Mister Rogers, Anthony Hopkins as a Pope or Lucas Hedges in Manchester? They all had more screentime than Daniel Kaluuya. Ultimately we’re dealing with issues of perception. Unless The Academy adopts clear policies it’s always going to be up for debate. But if you start pulling on the thread that the Academy should be an insitution that plays fair and be more concerned with artistic integrity than increasing the commercial aspects of American cinema then the whole damn thing is bound to unravel.

    >55% = lead

    <15% = supporting

    15%-55% = lead if most screen time and >80% more than next-closest (if not >80% than next-closest, both leads and next-closest does the same comparison to third-closest —- this goes until it works, or actor is in less than 15%, at which point it’s an ensemble)

    15%-55% = supporting if that is not the case

    No

    People do get upset about Odom, Jr. He’s literally mentioned in this thread. But because that film had four leads, it makes more sense (though it’s still wrong) to use the ensemble argument than it does with JATBM which only has two. 

    you can’t compare screentimes in one film with another. A lead in one movie may only be in around 45% (McDormand in TBOEM) whereas a supporting in another has about the same percentage (Church in Sideways). It’s about the difference between those in the same movie.

    Agree with the ultimate point, but what I said earlier still stands. This case just isn’t up for debate. It’s crystal clear. (Unlike a JLaw in SLP or a Davis in Fences)

     

    Grammys FYC:

    "Glimpse of Us" - Joji

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    Bonehead
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    #1205095059

     This case just isn’t up for debate. It’s crystal clear.

    Nope. I disagree. Sorry.

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    Jacob "Oscar Boy" Boe
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    #1205095062

    Nope. I disagree. Sorry. Guess we just have to live with it.

    That’s not a disagreement; that’s denialism and fallacious thinking.

    Grammys FYC:

    "Glimpse of Us" - Joji

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    Bonehead
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    #1205095066

    That’s not a disagreement; that’s denialism and fallacious thinking.

    I mean the whole debate is ultimately pointless and doesn’t change a damn thing.

    The Academy makes their rulings and we have to live with them.

    I’m going to continue thinking that Judas and the Black Messiah was an ensemble film like Spotlight was, you’re going to continue thinking it was category fraud, and the world will keep turning.

    Either way, Daniel Kaluuya won his first Oscar and the industry was all the better for it, regardless of whether or not he was placed in the “correct” category. There were many before him, and there will be many after.

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    sarahvsmovies
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    #1205095090

    Casey Affleck – The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. C’mon.

    Gyllenhaal, Foxx and Patel were also very silly.

    But the one that has and probably always will jump first to my mind when people talk about fraud is Vikander. When she won I just ignored what it was for and thought “wow it’s so nice to see the wonderful Ex Machina being recognized.” The Danish Girl? Don’t know her.

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    Sunrise1981
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    #1205095107

    1. Daniel Kaluuya and LaKeith Stanfield- Judas And The Black Messiah It’s truly something both of these men had to submit in supporting when neither of which were anything but lead. 2. Rooney Mara- Carol Couldn’t believe it, still don’t believe it, but this just shows studios do not want lead actresses competing against each other in the same category 3. Alicia Vikander- The Danish Girl Likely might be the one to contend with as the worst. She’s clearly in 2/3 of this film! 4. Viola Davis- Fences Yall say she’s supporting, I say she’s lead all day and could have won in lead. Sticking to my guts. She could have won in Lead.

    Oscar 1994

    Genna Davis and Susan Sarandon were both nominated for Best Actress in Oscar and neither of them won. And the trophy went to Jodie Foster

    The chances of winning are lower if co-leads compete both in the same category

     

    We have many examples of co-leads being nominated not in the same category.

    Beyonce and Jennifer Hudson in Dreamgirls.

    Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal in Brokeback Mountain.

    Judi Dench and Cate Blanchett in Notes to a Scandal.

    Cate and Rooney Mara in Carol

     

    who decides which actor is leading or supporting in each category?

    Oscar Rule

    The determination as to whether a role is leading or supporting a role shall be made individually by members of the branch at the time of balloting

    10 eligible Actors and 10 eligible Actresses – > nomination ballots -> highest number of votes to determine the Top 5 for actors and Top 5 actresses for BA and BSA – > final voting -> Oscar ceremony

     

    for consideration.

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    iWantTheGold
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    #1205095311

    If Stanfield was Supporting what does that make Jesse Plemons?

    The worst case of category fraud of all time was Al Pacino in Supporting for The Godfather. To his credit, he was pissed too, and boycotted the ceremony.

    Last 20 Years? Hailee Steinfeld for True Grit was pretty absurd. That’s pure “we can’t nominate a child actor in Lead” bullshit. Philip Seymour Hoffman for The Master also comes to mind. For someone who actually won? Christoph Waltz was a Lead both times, so I’m going to go with him, and Brad Pitt for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood (how on Earth is he not a Lead??)

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    Manav
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    #1205095335

    Brad Pitt was definitely a Lead in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood. 

    Anthony Hopkins wasn’t a lead in either The Silence Of The Lambs or The Two Popes.

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    Bonehead
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    #1205095404

    Ultimately, there are no correct category placements, only beneficial ones for studios and agencies.

    Category fraud doesn’t actually exist.

     

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