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Why have these artists not won in the Big Three?

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  • delacruc
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    Well, I think Whitney always had more respect within the industry and was seen as a real artist. Plus, she had the support of the gospel and R&B voters as well. Plus, lets be real, Whitney was always seen as mega-star. Whitney transcended the pop star mold.

    I really don’t know how Celine pulled off that win, I can just say she’s an abnormality in that sense.

    But another poster said something really insightful; Mariah was somebody who really didn’t come across as likable to a great deal of people. Perhaps this is part of why she lost and lost often. Perhaps voters at the end of the day just preferred to vote for somebody they actually respected.

    Whitney ALWAYS recorded more pop than Mariah, especially around the time The Bodyguard came out. And to say that Whitney had any demographic bloc of support over Mariah is a fallacy. There is clear overlap between their supporters, and I would even argue that Mariah had MORE diverse support. Ex: by the mid-90’s, the Mariah house mix was a frequent presence in NYC/Newark/Chicago club culture; and her hip hop remixes played often on fledgling urban radio. So clearly there is multi-platform support. But then again these were “new” formats made up of communities that weren’t necessarily voting for Grammys.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  delacruc.
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    queenb
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    #1202812942

    Whitney ALWAYS recorded more pop than Mariah, especially around the time The Bodyguard came out. And to say that Whitney had any demographic bloc of support over Mariah is a fallacy. There is clear overlap between their supporters, and I would even argue that Mariah had MORE diverse support. Ex: by the mid-90’s, the Mariah house mix was a frequent presence in NYC/Newark/Chicago club culture; and her hip hop remixes played often on fledgling urban radio. So clearly there is multi-platform support. But then again these were “new” formats made up of communities that weren’t necessarily voting for Grammys.

    They both recorded pop. But he said she had more R&B support which is true. While neither won, Mariah had like 4 nominations in the R&B categories in her first decade. Whitney on the other hand had 6 in her first decade despite releasing less albums. She got one for each album in her prime and even for non-hits. Whitney did better at Soul Train, NAACP and all those awards for the black community. Mariah may have hip hop support today but that was definitely not the case back then. All divas do equally well in the clubs/dance scene.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  queenb.
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    delacruc
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    They both recorded pop. But he said she had more R&B support which is true. While neither won, Mariah had like 4 nominations in the R&B categories in her first decade. Whitney on the other hand had 6 in her first decade despite releasing less albums. She got one for each album in her prime and even for non-hits. Whitney did better at Soul Train, NAACP and all those awards for the black community. Mariah may have hip hop support today but that was definitely not the case back then. All divas do equally well in the clubs/dance scene.

    Actually in her first decade Whitney received 5 nominations in the R&B field. That is one more than Mariah in her first decade. Was Always Be My Baby her first R&B nomination? Well it hadn’t yet even been released as a single when it was nominated.
    Mariah may have hip hop support today but that was definitely not the case back then.
    -Actually, yes, she did.
    All divas do equally well in the clubs/dance scene.
    -No, they really don’t.

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    Emmyfan
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    #1202812972

    When it comes to dance remixes, both Whitney and Mariah did very well. Mariah Carey had the earlier success on remixes with the following:

    Dreamlover – 1993
    Fantasy – my all time favorite – 1995
    Always Be My Baby – 1996
    Honey – 1997
    My All – 1998

    Whitney’s hottest dance remixes are the following:

    I’m Every Woman – 1993
    Heartbreak Hotel – 1998/1999
    It’s Not Right, But It’s Okay – 1999
    My Love Is Your Love – 1999
    I Learned From The Best – 2000

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    delacruc
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    #1202812979

    When it comes to dance remixes, both Whitney and Mariah did very well. Mariah Carey had the earlier success on remixes with the following:

    Dreamlover – 1993
    Fantasy – my all time favorite – 1995
    Always Be My Baby – 1996
    Honey – 1997
    My All – 1998

    Whitney’s hottest dance remixes are the following:

    I’m Every Woman – 1993
    Heartbreak Hotel – 1998/1999
    It’s Not Right, But It’s Okay – 1999
    My Love Is Your Love – 1999
    I Learned From The Best – 2000

    Yes, I agree but I’m talking about the early days of house music. Mariah also had Emotions, Anytime You Need a Friend, Heartbreaker and all those Someday remixes by Shep Pettibone (which were staples in the Newark underground scene).

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  delacruc.
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    Emmyfan
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    #1202812983

    Whitney ALWAYS recorded more pop than Mariah, especially around the time The Bodyguard came out. And to say that Whitney had any demographic bloc of support over Mariah is a fallacy. There is clear overlap between their supporters, and I would even argue that Mariah had MORE diverse support. Ex: by the mid-90’s, the Mariah house mix was a frequent presence in NYC/Newark/Chicago club culture; and her hip hop remixes played often on fledgling urban radio. So clearly there is multi-platform support. But then again these were “new” formats made up of communities that weren’t necessarily voting for Grammys.

    Whitney’s remixes were also plastered all over Chicago and they deserved to be. When her remixes were played, the dance floor would get jammed pack when her remixes were played.

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    Emmyfan
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    #1202813000

    The interesting thing about Mariah’s formula in the mid 90s was that she would have a regular version of a song, a dance remix and then a remix with a rapper. This all started with Fantasy and then continued with Always Be My Baby, Heartbreaker.

    Interesting thing is that Chaka Khan’s I Feel For You is one of the earlier songs to have a rapper. In 1990, Janet Jackson’s remix of Alright had Heavy D rapping. Then in 1991, Whitney Houston’s remix of My Name Is Not Susan has Monie Love rapping on it and Patti LaBelle’s Feels Like Another One featured Big Daddy Kane rapping.

    I have no idea why I said all of that

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    queenb
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    Actually in her first decade Whitney received 5 nominations in the R&B field. That is one more than Mariah in her first decade. Was Always Be My Baby her first R&B nomination? Well it hadn’t yet even been released as a single when it was nominated. Mariah may have hip hop support today but that was definitely not the case back then. -Actually, yes, she did. All divas do equally well in the clubs/dance scene. -No, they really don’t.

    5 is still greater than 4 especially with less albums. Looking at 1991-2000 when they actually were competing against each other, Whitney went 1/8 in R&B receiving a nod for every album while Mariah went 0/4. That is in addition to the Soul Train, Dove, NAACP, etc awards where Whitney comes out on top. She had more support in the R&B/gospel bloc and I don’t see how you can argue otherwise.

    Both did equally well in the dance/club scene. Mariah herself has said she fought a long time to gain support and acceptance in the hip hop community. Regardless, even if she had support it wouldn’t have been a lot like you already said.

    But none of this matters. R&B support is NOT why Whitney did better in the GF, because it wouldn’t explain why Celine won as well.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  queenb.
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    Emmyfan
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    #1202813005

    Celine won Album of the Year in 1996 because her music was everywhere and probably appealed to the older Grammy voters. This could also explain why Lionel Richie won Album of the Year for Can’t Slow Down in 1985 over Tina Turner, Prince & The Revolution, Cyndi Lauper and Bruce Springsteen.

    Celine won Record of the Year for My Heart Will Go On because it was a massive hit and nothing was stopping it. Again the older voters might have helped a lot. My guess is that Madonna’s Ray of Light was second.

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    queenb
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    Celine won Album of the Year in 1996 because her music was everywhere and probably appealed to the older Grammy voters. This could also explain why Lionel Richie won Album of the Year for Can’t Slow Down in 1985 over Tina Turner, Prince & The Revolution, Cyndi Lauper and Bruce Springsteen. Celine won Record of the Year for My Heart Will Go On because it was a massive hit and nothing was stopping it. Again the older voters might have helped a lot. My guess is that Madonna’s Ray of Light was second.

    But Musicbox isn’t far off from Falling Into You in terms of sound, appeal, and success. Daydream probably has even wider appeal. Her music was also everywhere and had a record breaking US hit with “One Sweet Day” during voting period.

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    Emmyfan
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    Actually in her first decade Whitney received 5 nominations in the R&B field. That is one more than Mariah in her first decade. Was Always Be My Baby her first R&B nomination? Well it hadn’t yet even been released as a single when it was nominated.
    Mariah may have hip hop support today but that was definitely not the case back then.
    -Actually, yes, she did.
    All divas do equally well in the clubs/dance scene.
    -No, they really don’t.

    Well, a lot of the divas did well on the dance charts- Aretha had 2 to 3 dance remixes that were played on the dance floor – A Deeper Love, A Rose Is Still A Rose and Here We Go Again.

    Patti LaBelle had When We Talk About Love and When The Shoe Was On The Other Foot. Toni Braxton had Unbreak My Heart, Love Is Making Me High and I Don’t Want To. Cher had One By One, Believe, All or Nothing, Strong Enough, This Is A Song for the Lonely, A Different Kind of Love Song.

    Gloria Estefan had You’ll Be Mine Party Time, Don’t Let This Moment End and Heaven Is What I Feel

    Dance Remixes were the craze from 1993/1994 to 2000. Sometimes the dance remix can breath life into the sales of a single.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  Emmyfan.
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    Emmyfan
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    One more fact – Whitney, Mariah and Celine competed against each other on two occasions – 1997 American Music Awards – Contemporary Artist and Whitney won. They all were nominated in 2000 for Pop Collaboration with When You Believe – Whitney & Mariah and Celine with Andrea Bocelli – they lost to Santana & Rob Thomas for Smooth

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    Emmyfan
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    But Musicbox isn’t far off from Falling Into You in terms of sound, appeal, and success. Daydream probably has even wider appeal. Her music was also everywhere and had a record breaking US hit with “One Sweet Day” during voting period.

    Daydream (to me) was a better album than Musicbox. Very true in that Mariah’s music was everywhere during the voting period which is why I was shocked that One Sweet Day lost Pop Collaboration and Pop Album.

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    Emmyfan
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    And yet Celine Dion, who is the quintessence of middle of the road conventional pop was able to pull off a win literally one year later over Beck, The Fugees and The Smashing Pumpkins.

    I think Celine also won because she captured pop votes. Beck and Smashing Pumpkins might have cancelled each other. The Fugees and The Waiting To Exhale Soundtrack might have slightly cancelled each other out. My vote would have gone to Waiting To Exhale.

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    queenb
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    Next year Kendrick will pass Mariah’s to become the biggest loser in the big 3.

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