Forum Replies Created
December 2, 2020 at 8:44 am #1203889435
I think these discussions show why AOTY is a stretch for Future Nostalgia; it doesn’t necessarily matter if Dua isn’t the best songwriter, but what DOES make FN matter as *the* album of 2020? To be fair, I don’t know the BRP could answer that for any Mainstream act pushed across multiple categories, despite ignoring other (bigger) albums/songs.
Future Nostalgia had a mediocre run, despite heavy Radio/Spotify promo. It never hit #1 on BB200/only 1 Top 10 on BB100. Those are weak stats in BPVA, let alone AOTY.
Thank U, Next had the performance expected of a Mainstream act with GF noms (#1 on BB200, 1-1-2 on BB100) and still missed SOTY for a #1 hit / 0-6 in wins. Yet, here we are, with FN (2-60-13-20) and Folklore (1 single; #1, 14 wks total) as front-runners, and After Hours / Fine Line shut out.
I’m not sure who should win, but FN would be 1 of the weaker Pop winners. As stated, it’s the BRP’s decision to allow underwhelming commercial acts to dominate I have a problem with, not Dua. After Hours for FN (AOTY), Blinding Lights for Everything I Wanted (ROTY), and Adore You for DSN (SOTY) would’ve been a fairer representation of 2020, IMO.October 27, 2020 at 9:48 am #1203805365
Grammys typically reward music reflective of a given year: lyrics relevant to a social movement, innovative production, artists with a breakout year. Pop acts / albums can be that. Adele didn’t win because of X weeks #1 on BB200, though. Pop, by definition, has mainstream appeal / should have strong commercial performance. Billie swept because she 1. checked all boxes of a Pop act (sales, streams, hits) AND 2. had a narrative. She was inescapable in 2020: new artist, different look / sound (via her brother), and had begun to impact Pop music trends.
Why would the Grammys select Folkore, a Pop album by the biggest star in the biz that 90% of GP are unaware of, hasn’t spawned 1 hit, was inspired by the sound of artists like LDR, and was irrelevant in a year dominated by 2 major political/societal movements? Clearly, fans + the overrated (to gauge ‘acclaim’) MC agree Folkore is her best work; these (reviews, sales, records) are its wins.
Sure, Folkore – and TS/Pop acts in general – will always be contenders in a pure vote. Pretending, though, there is some pervasive rationale (i.e., 6+ weeks at #1 on BB200) vs. a literal popularity contest is disingenuous. Whenever there’s looked to be a concerted effort to recognize an album/artist, it wasn’t for a hugely popular, mainstream artist whose album made so little noise outside a fanbase that to say it will be “forgotten” is misleading.July 2, 2020 at 3:51 pm #1203563957
The sweeps of this decade were really underwhelming; Santana’s domination of the 2000 ceremony was probably the most disappointing, as there were several highlights of that year in music that went unrecognized. The fact that TLC were nominated for 8 awards is a feat that is hardly ever remembered, despite how ahead of their time they were. FanMail was such a strong comeback after years of chaos, and I think they deserved AOTY, ROTY (No Scrubs), and Best Music Video (Unpretty) as well as possibly Best Pop Perf. by a Group (Unpretty) in addition to the 3 they ended up walking away with. (of course, performing artists weren’t credited with Song categories at that time, so their Best R&B Song win and SOTY nomination get even less recognition).
Norah Jones’ sweep was just as unexciting, but I am not/was not as passionate about any of the other nominations to say whether it was undeserved.June 10, 2020 at 12:07 pm #1203526095
Is there a particular reason a song like Fall On Me has received quite a bit of attention, whereas other songs – less commercial / charting success – have been essentially ignored? Genuine question.
“My Oh My” should be held to a higher level of commercial standards, IMO, considering CC’s biggest asset is her ability to achieve mainstream sales. A #12 peak is extremely weak for that type of artist, and it being her highest charting song off Romance makes me think it has little chance at BPVA. Should I look at either the song or album in another way?
On the other hand, for reasons I imagine Fall On Me is a frequent mention, I feel that Level of Concern by 21 Pilots and/or If The World Was Ending by Julia Michaels/PJ Morton would be considered before a subpar single from an underwhelming pop era?
I. BEST POP VOCAL ALBUM
1. Chromatica (Lady Gaga)
2. Fine Line (Harry Styles)
3. Future Nostalgia (Dua Lipa)
4. Changes (Justin Bieber)
5. Hollywood’s Bleeding (Post Malone)
THOUGHTS: I only see Lady Gaga and Harry Styles as ‘safe.’
a) Future Nostalgia should’ve done similarly to After Hours considering DSN was given a Top 10 residency thanks to Radio like Blinding Lights, yet that didn’t translate to successful singles or album sales.
b) Hollywood’s Bleeding has been remarkably forgettable despite Circles being a Top 10 fixture on the Charts. In any other year, I’d already take it out.
c) Changes would be the popular 1 to replace, but I think it’s actually the best album of these 3 and makes Rare and Romance look very weak.
II.BEST POP SOLO PERFORMANCE
1. Blinding Lights (The Weeknd)
2. Adore You (Harry Syles)
3. Circles (Post Malone)
4. Don’t Start Now (Dua Lipa)
5. Say So (Doja Cat)
6. Everything I Wanted (Billie Eilish)
7-8. Stupid Love (Lady Gaga); Modern Loneliness (Tauv)
THOUGHTS: Blinding Lights is the runaway here, and the fact that Don’t Start Now and Say So each had a similar retro/disco sonic influence has to hurt at least a bit. Say So reached #1 and has a better narrative than DSN; also, whereas Harry Styles is peaking, Circles has become exhausting.
III. BEST PERF. BY A POP DUO/GROUP
1. Rain On Me (Lady Gaga/Ariana Grande)
2. Intentions (Justin Bieber ft. Quavo)
3. Fall On Me (A Great New World ft. Christina Aguilera)
4. If The World Was Ending (Julia Michaels ft. PJ Morton)
5. Level of Concern (21 Pilots)
THOUGHTS: In a year with so many remixes and collaborations, big debuts with big crashes, I see the noms skewing toward ‘bait.’ I just don’t see Maroon 5 getting in. I didn’t think SWU had a shot, but the new rule takes Good As Hell — a possible name-check — out of contention for me.June 10, 2020 at 11:18 am #1203525943
This only highlights how ridiculous the inconsistencies within the genre categories are. Nobody with some authority noticed that ‘urban’ is still used as an adjective in another genre? Nobody reviewed the rules for Pop and Country Duo and thought “gee, this seems unfair to limit a pop artist to 1 nomination but give a country artist a loophole.”?
I like the idea of following something like the categories applied to Radio formats; otherwise, maybe replacing Contemporary or the new UC type of categories with ‘Mainstream Crossover’ to give cross-genre albums recognition? These may be terrible examples, but roll with it:
<span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>I. Best Mainstream Crossover Album</span>
1. After Hours – The Weeknd (R&B)
2. Chromatica – Lady Gaga (Dance)
3. Invasion of Privacy – Cardi B (Rap)
4. Red – Taylor Swift (Country)
5. Random Access Memories – Daft Punk (Alternative)
I also think that the notion of ‘Best Collaboration’ is going to become a total mess as more and more remixes are released to boost streaming success. I really think Duo/Group needs to revert back to its initial meaning (e.g., not a solo artist), Collaboration limited to songs that are released initially featuring 2 artists and/or that have equal contribution, and a new ‘Remix’ award.June 9, 2020 at 6:40 am #1203523278
I disagree that Artist/Performer would be redundant; BNA has gone to to an artist without the most noms. Similarly, an artist/ group does not always win >1 GF. Either eliminate BNA OR replace with 1/ both of Breakthrough Artist + Performer of the Year.
In 2020, “POTY” could’ve gone to Billie, Gaga, or Ariana Grande; Billie’s highs were higher than Gaga or Grande, but the latter 2 had a consistent year of impact. 2009 (Swift, Kings of Leon, Beyonce) and 2010 (Arcade Fire, Lady Antebellum) are recent examples where 1 act didn’t dominate.
I’d rather see reforms at the genre level come first: definitions of each genre, consistency in the awards, panels across the board. If I had to make GF tweaks at the moment, I’d reduce the fields to Top 5 popular vote + 1-3 committee picks. 8 has shown to be far too many nominees.
To be honest, I’d settle for just some consistency in the nomenclature and definitions posted online; is ROTY synonymous with Performance of the Year? If not, why are there so many Performance awards? Song, Sung Performance, Performance, Recording, Traditional, Contemporary… what do these mean and why do they only apply to some genres?June 4, 2020 at 7:03 am #1203515912
Why does everyone get so nasty on here over predictions? I’m a Gaga fan and will use her as an example throughout but this isn’t about her; above all, I’d hope at an Awards like the Grammys, the nominees and winners represent ‘quality’ across the board. The definition of ‘quality’ will vary voter to voter, and that’s OK. If Chart performance won, it’d be Billboard. Best-sellers receive IFPI recognition. Fans vote the AMAs, etc.
Shouldn’t the premier event in the industry take all of those factors, and others, into consideration, making what happens too complex for statements like: “Gaga isn’t getting nominated this year because [she’s been in the running 3 years straight] / [people predicted Shallow to win SOTY/ROTY and it didn’t] / [people predicted ASIB to get an AOTY nom and it didn’t]”? This applies to everyone using results from the past as a clean-cut indicator.
Patterns can be too apparent to ignore, but for the most part, it’s absurd to say someone was delusional in hindsight for thinking Gaga would a) win 1 of ROTY/SOTY for what would become the most-awarded song of all time, or 2) get an AOTY nom for ASIB – 4th best selling album of both ’18 and ’19, same amount of #1s and top 10s as the eventual winner, etc.
If you have the formula nailed down, why are you on a discussion forum? Just place your bests, watch, and collect. Otherwise, is it not more interesting to have a conversation than flex?May 29, 2020 at 7:28 am #1203507209
Gaga is held to such an absurdly high standard. It’s sad to see a lot of her comments turn out to be from early in her career re: her legacy being felt more once she was gone. I don’t know how to speak in posts shorter than a novel, so to sum up my main points:
Chromatica combines K-POP with Elton John in a restrained, cohesive way that she has been unable to do previously (Born This Way) on an album that perfectly blends her dance-pop glory days with the maturity of her ASIB rebirth; its personal without being burdensome (Joanne); its a digestible body-of-work crammed into the restraints of the streaming era’s 3:00 max but still touches on every topic needed to remain uncancelled: mental health, addiction, feminism, objectification, the religion of science, bullying.
It is not only a well-curated #1 album, but it’s already amassed commercial success beyond most recent contenders for AOTY: Stupid Love (#5), Rain On Me (#1), and Sour Candy (~#15 – 40). She should also get 1 solo Top 40 out of: Alice, Fun Tonight, Replay, or Free Woman, and another hit collaboration with Sine From Above (hopefully after 08/31).
The only songs that weren’t more than a B+ for me were Enigma and Babylon. I wish I could add ~1:00 to several tracks, but I don’t see why the following nominations would be unwarranted:
1. GENERAL FIELD: AOTY, SOTY (Rain On Me; hoping for Fun Tonight)
2. POP: BPVA, BPD/G (2020, Rain On Me; 2021, Sine From Above)
With a peak of 78 on metacritic and 0 GF wins, why would she write anything at the level of Bad Romance when it wasn’t even nominated for ROTY or SOTY? Why would she deliver a vocal performance on the level of Shallow if, despite being the most awarded song in history, it was 0/2 in the GF?
If The Fame (71) wasn’t influential enough to warrant a GF win; if The Fame Monster (78) wasn’t proof enough that she had the skills to back up her celebrity; if Born This Way (71) wasn’t experimental or ambitious enough; if A Star is Born (78) wasn’t undeniable in its cross-genre, worldwide appeal, then why did anyone expect a record that matches the ground-breaking songwriting of Future Nostalgia (88) and Chart domination of its followup singles to Don’t Start Now? In the days where bridges have gone extinct, Chromatica is a quality response from Gaga re: her relevancy and status.May 25, 2020 at 12:18 pm #1203500117
I truly do NOT understand why Pop is treated so differently than other genre categories and why it is that an artist like The Weeknd is going to be able to submit his biggest hit to BPS (Blinding Lights), a collab with an artist whose most likely “box” is ‘rap’ to BPD/G (In Your Eyes ft. Doja Cat), and still have their album considered Urban Contemporary/R&B, and a chance for at least 1 other song entered into the R&B field.
How does that NOT indicate that The Weeknd completed a POP album? Yet, Chromatica has no chance to submit as a D/E Album in the same way that ARTPOP and BTW were unable to submit any songs into D/E, or Joanne/ASIB any songs to Country. I’m not talking about whether noms or wins would be deserved in any of these cases, just trying to understand why certain artists can submit 2 of their biggest hits – in a time when eras are limited 4 singles max – into the Pop field and still compete in Urban Contemporary Album with deep cuts in the R&B field, while others are forced under BPVA and the Pop genre.
Pop as it is treated by the Grammys is NOT synonymous with “popular” as someone alluded to. If that were the case, it would be redundant with the GF and songs submitted to Rock/Dance/Rap/R&B wouldn’t get tossed to Pop if there wasn’t a defined sound the Academy is considering. Every genre field needs a committee for consistency and transparency, and Pop needs to be updated to include at minimum ‘Best Pop Song.’
Meanwhile, as artists continue to break/blend genres, and the streaming era promotes album tracks charting due the size of fanbases/amount of hype vs. quality of the music/penetration into markets, rules need to be considered surrounding limiting artists to compete under 1 singular genre, submitting only official singles, and separating Duo/Group from Colllaborations as featured remixes will continue to gain popularity as a way of boosting streams.May 12, 2020 at 8:53 am #1203477857
People seriously need to take a step back and realize we are talking about human beings who are talented musically and have made a profession out of it. The way people look to these musicians for everything from political guidance to medical advice is scary and sad.
These awards should go to the best music of the year, not the person who fits the mold for what society considers to be righteous at the moment. Who freaking cares if Doja Cat said maggot with an ‘f’ a million times? Did I love when people called me that for nearly a decade in school before I came out? No. Do I care if someone screams that word while beating up on someone they genuinely dislike solely because of them being one? Yes.
Everyone realizes that Eminem is a multi-winning Grammy artist despite entire tracks dedicated to violence against gay people, right? And, that if we ‘canceled’ every rapper (and, if we go back ~10 years, this would apply to every category) who has used the word in the same context as Doja, we’d have no options, right? Dismantling the concept of free speech through Rap of all categories is just.. yea.
Again, if we judged each member on here based on the alleged actions of people they have had to collaborate with professionally during their careers, we’d all be ‘canceled.’ Roman Polanski continues to receive awards, accolades, standing ovations, etc., despite PLEADING GUILTY to unlawful sexual intercourse with a 13 YEAR OLD GIRL. If you enjoy a film, actor, actress, entertainer, or celebrity that has supported or benefitted from Roman Polanski living as a free man, then please take several seats.
I love “Say So,” think Doja Cat brings a fresh take on the pop-rap blend that Nicki Minaj pushed into the mainstream, and would be happy to see it acknowledged with nominations/wins. Worry about yourself and the people you surround yourself with before thinking you have any moral superiority for thinking someone’s right to earn a living should be taken away for using free speech even if you disagree with it (and to even categorize what she said that way makes much more of a deal out of it than it deserves anyway). Otherwise, don’t vote for artists that hurt your feelings for awards like the AMAs.April 9, 2020 at 5:53 pm #1203418402
I think there needs to be some serious PR work done to educate people on what the standards are for the Grammys; voting will always be subjective, but the AMAs are voter-based, Billboard’s is based on Chart performance, etc. The Grammy Awards need to at least be clear on what their definition of quality is as a type of fundamental mission statement.
More and more, people seem to be using Charts performance as a metric that weighs heavily on nominations/awards; for example, I continuously read that a certain placement is essentially required to be considered for categories like SOTY/ROTY, and in this very thread, Alicia Keys’ album was discussed as not being snubbed due to it not delivering any smash singles or “top 10 hits.”
Charts have never been correlated to Grammy success, and should not be. As mentioned, there are already awards for performance in that area and a simple glance at most of the winners vs. the most commercially successful acts of each year says this has been the case. Now that Charts have evolved drastically with streaming, they mean even less. could you imagine album tracks from the boy band era charting during release week like songs from The Weeknd, Billie, etc. do now? Or, to see songs drop and then skyrocket during album release?
Additionally, the inclusion of an album like ARTPOP in a poll such as this shows that there is a shift among the GP that the Grammy Awards reward work that attempts to push boundaries; a few years ago, 99% of people would agree that Joanne – to use a Gaga example – was more in line with “Grammy bait,” as it was more traditional, focused on vocals, etc.
Anyway, as with most of her eras, Gaga’s ARTPOP cycle was a mess. It remains her only album without a Grammy nomination, and while she wouldn’t have been likely to have deserved any wins in such deep years, songs like Applause, DWUW, and Gypsy, for example, would have normally been at least enough for Pop Solo, Pop Duo, and Pop Vocal Album noms with a normal rollout. It wasn’t snubbed as much as it was already considered a filthy topic in its entirety.
I think, given the quality of nominations that year, Million Reasons was probably the most obvious snub of Gaga’s career. It definitely checked every box of a SOTY nominee; whether or not it – and Joanne as an album – deserved wins in the Pop genre isn’t black/white enough for me to say there was a snub.March 16, 2020 at 7:39 am #1203382784
I don’t see ‘Say So’ getting in; it is reaching its shelf life and its peak won’t be high enough to justify inclusion. A nice debut hit, though, and I think she has earned BNA consideration. ‘Roxanne’ and ‘Dance Monkey’ are just… not my taste… and I can’t believe they are in discussions about the GF or even genre noms. Again, in the days where Tik Tok can allow a song to soar into the BB Top 10, we can’t let the charts dictate everything.
It will be interesting to see/hear how the upcoming albums do from Weeknd, Dua Lipa, and Gaga. The major lineups could/probably should end up looking a lot more ‘traditional’ depending on how those go. I think ‘Intentions’ by Bieber could get a SOTY/ROTY nod and Pop Duo; ‘Adore You’ is also climbing its way up thanks to radio which could propel it into the GF and possibly nudge Fine Line into AOTY consideration.
Are there major rock or country releases to look out for? I think The Weeknd, Roddy Rich, and Post Malone are locks for AOTY but that makes pop-leaning acts a lot less likely to fill the lineup out IMO.March 16, 2020 at 7:38 am #1203382782
The Weeknd’s “Heartless” is at #111 on Spotify, “After Hours” is at #53. “Blinding Lights” is really saving this era.
Again, another major flaw in using BB Hot 100 as the only way of gauging quality music in the streaming era. As I said, you either need to sacrifice your lead single or 2nd single in order to get a big hit and the momentum to sell an album these days, which – because many artists still do not get enough of a ‘hit’ to justify the costs for their label – are no longer ‘eras.’ Ava Max is releasing her DEBUT ALBUM soon, and from what I gather, only Sweet But Pyscho will be included out of the singles she released between then and her latest King & Queens. I am not a fan, but I do know she’s released So Am I, Salt, Torn, Alone pt. 2, and at least 1 other single since SBP.
How can you create a cohesive body of work with a defined sound, visuals, etc., when you know that if you can’t grab multiple hit singles, the album won’t be released? It’s clear that Dua Lipa’s label and team are confident in Future Nostalgia, but if she were a U.S.-focused act (she is much more successful in the UK and Europe), Future Nostalgia would be a massive risk since Don’t Start Now only JUST started to gain real traction in the U.S. and Physical has yet, and likely never will, reach that level.
You either sacrifice your lead single like The Weeknd (why do people call him Abel? Serious question. Nobody calls ‘Gaga’ Stefani?) and Bieber did; or, you sacrifice the 2nd single like Selena Gomez and Dua Lipa did. When an artist attempts to give their first single enough time to build a presence on its own, it is labeled a flop. Case in point: ‘Stupid Love.’ Its gains on Top 40/HAC radio have been monstrous this week so, along with a great Top 5 debut, it will be near/in the Top 10 during album release and for another ~4 weeks.
Dua’s rise on the charts has been on the back of radio-play. Stupid Love is getting radio love much quicker and had the benefit of a huge debut, yet the assessment of each single’s performance couldn’t be different on here. SL is already a massive success for a 2000s era popstar, but even moreso when you consider that it has given her radio credibility, will serve consistency on the charts after this week once that radio AI is set, and will be a better setup for her second single than a ‘Yummy’ or ‘Heartless’ were.March 11, 2020 at 7:06 am #1203377974
Anyway, what’s happening with “Physical”? I find it to be much superior to “Don’t Start Now”. Dua seems like she can’t push a second single right now, since Don’t Start Now is having a radio peak. But it sucks because “Physical” would’ve probably found better success in streaming.
This is the entire issue with “the streaming era,” and using BB charts as a metric of musical quality has also become flawed as a result. Streaming has totally stripped music of the stardom that powered it previously; beyond being meme-able, even the artist can almost be anonymous nowadays. To contradict my last post, DSN is an example of the type of song I used to love the most: its slow, steady ascent to the top through promotion, A+ branding, increased GP awareness in tandem with a radio climb… DSN and Dua Lipa’s entire Future Nostalgia brand WILL be associated in my mind with 2020 music. It has a sense of place, a sense of permanency.
Singles and albums used to be big events for artists with distinct themes and a 3-4 month promo cycle for each song to help build a narrative. Now, 1-2 singles are thrown at Spotify to see what sticks, a messy album is compiled and blasted, 8-10 songs chart on album week, and the era fizzles.
The result is:
1. A Billie Eilish who ends up with AOTY when only 1 of her songs from the album actually made an impact and even charted on the beloved BB Hot 100 top 10.
2. The Weeknd whose lead single was eaten up by their 2nd release; the quality of their album will likely make their inclusion here a little less compelling, but it is hard to build momentum when the lead is overpowered by the 2nd single.
3. Dua Lipa whose lead single was an incredible LEAD in that it clicked with the GP, slowly risen over months, and now has people excited for the release of her album and music that will very much be in the same vein of retro-infused songs; however, her 2nd single never stood a chance but many will say it was needed as releasing anything helps to boost streams, etc.March 11, 2020 at 6:57 am #1203377970
Are you seriously using Billboard chart positions as hints to Grammy success? Like, seriously? I don’t hate Dua. In fact, I loved her when she broke out and felt her Grammy wins were deserving. But this song, “Don’t Start Now,” is not bad, it’s not just worthy of Grammy gold. It’s basic Brit-pop imo. Regarding your Billboard thing, “Electricity,” one of Dua’s wins, peaked at #62 on the US charts, so, where’s your point? I know Billboard tends to be a favorable indicator of Grammy success, especially in the case of pop music (case in point “Señorita”), but it’s not always the case. I’m still leaving her out for now until the Grammy deadline is hit and it’s obvious she’ll still be a frontrunner (which will be completely sad). Again, no hate for Dua, just not impressed with her new stuff.
Amen. Reading this forum leading up to the 2020 ceremony’s nominations last year was super confusing; as a casual follower of the Grammys, I was shocked at how Billboard success was being used as a prerequisite to consideration. I mean, I was super young when it happened, but Norah Jones’ near-sweep blew me away at the time — where was she on Billboard that year? Why has an artist like Katy Perry never even been given a single win? How do you explain Gaga and Beyonce having 1 GF win between them, while The Suburbs, Mumford & Sons, and Beck all collected AOTY awards last decade?
Billboard already gives out awards; as one of the few ways we have to look at how music is being received by the GP, should charts be used when making predictions and assessing the impact of songs/artists? Sure. But, otherwise, just use year-end charts off BB and call it a day.
I love the type of music Dua Lipa is serving right now. I am super excited that Gaga has gone back to dance-pop, but I would be confused in the worst way if a song like “Stupid Love” despite its #5 debut, made it into the GF when Bad Romance and Edge of Glory missed out in the previous years. “Don’t Start Now” is a fantastic hit for Dua and show she is now a WW pop force; I fail to see how it breaks beyond that for consideration within what is supposed to be a representation of the top 8 records/songs the industry has heard in the year.